I agree with you for the most part (especially about the API's and web services which CJ provides). However, I do think Kris has a point. Usability is a selling feature for his network. It's not the end-all-be-all for user interfaces and I think his repetitive use of "web2.0 interface" is a little inflated, but it's a start. And if it causes the other networks to think about interfaces and usability, then it's a good start.
But a desktop bookmark to a stats page? Come on... there's got to be a better solution (even on a tech call) than suggesting the end user have to do one more thing on their side of the court.
How many bookmarks for stat pages do you have in the dock of your Mac? Perhaps there's a way to hook that up through Fluid? I'll see if any network reps know :)
As I said on the podcast(s), I'm not taking sides here, but I do think Kris' point is fair criticism given that we've all been complaining about stats interfaces for years.
Sam
Kris Jones
· 1 year ago
Scott,
It's valuable to have a different opinion here, especially from a Commission Junction Publisher Advisory Board member.
When I used the words Web 2.0 in my post I was really referring to technologies like AJAX and PYTHON, programming languages that are used throughout Pepperjam Network to improve the user experience. Some of the benefits of AJAX include the ability to move from one page to another seemlessly and to pull important information quickly without having to load excessive data. CJ seems to still be using less ideal technologies (not AJAX) even though the depth of the reporting is very impressive.
I also agree with you that Web services (i.e. API access) is critical and Pepperjam Network is working to release a Web services platform that can be used by anyone, not just high-level tech / programming experts like yourself, which is what most of the other networks offer.
My post was really about the idea of next generation affiliate marketing.
By next generation I mean (1) better communication tools and (2) unfettered affiliate transparency.
The other networks have talked about these things but really haven't provided a solution.
Pepperjam Network has taken a step in the right direction by putting power back in the hands of affiliates and advertisers to control the relationship and make more money through better communication tools and unfettered affiliate and advertiser transparency.
The last thing I'll say that needs to be disclosed here is that you are a member of Commission Junction's Publisher Advisory Board. I'm surprised that you didn't mention your leadership role at CJ in your post because it seems to me to be worth disclosing or reminding your readers.
I'm not suggesting that your role on CJ's board influences your decision to comment here. Most of us that follow the industry closely know that you are quite outspoken and extremely well-respected. That's why network's like CJ ask you to be on their board and that's why Pepperjam Network will ask you to serve on our board once we create it.
Once again, thanks for your comments.
My hope is that if this discussion continues we all talk about next generation tools that are accessible to everyone, not just the select few affiliates / advertisers chosen by the network or to those with the programming and development skills to build their own.
Scott
· 1 year ago
It's absolutely a start, Sam, and I'll back Pepperjam and anyone else to the bitter end on building a great new interface and network that offers a better way to do things than the status quo.
As I said, I love that it is happening, and as I said in the quote that I gave them, I think they're in a great position to do it.
But I have to call you guys on this bookmark thing, and that you're pushing back on it, I don't think you see my point.
Personally, I don't have or need any bookmarks to get into CJ. I can save my reports, and that serves me just fine.
Maybe I should get the details from Shawn, but it seems that his complaint was that there is some data that is hard to get to. That may or may not be something that I or 10,000 other affiliates want to see on the homepage.
The fact of the matter is that he can save any report and name it, then it's just a few clicks away (I wish CJ had THAT on the homepage).
That's what I do. He seemed to like the bookmark idea, and it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, especially if that data isn't necessarily what *everybody* wants to see on the homepage.
And even if it is, and this is news to CJ, what's wrong with offering Shawn, an individual with a problem, in a private converation, a nice quick solution? Nothing.
Shawn wrote about it and all of a sudden it's CJ's official answer to Pepperjam's better interface?
Scott
· 1 year ago
Thanks Kris.
You mention the CJPAB status as if it makes me bias. I would challenge you to find a harsher critic than me on things that CJ has done, or not done in the past several years. Some of those things, I'm afraid probably jeopardized my position as a CJP and advisory board member.
Also, that status or my status as a CJ Performer does not afford me any special access to features. Granted, my technical knowledge does allow me to take advantage of APIs.
I'm sorry I didn't mention those things.
This post wasn't written to piss you off or to pick a fight. I hope you don't see it that way.
I also want us all to focus on features and improvements that at the very least are available to everyone (APIs are) if not benefit everyone.
I consider Pepperjam a good partner as much as I do CJ and as I've said, I want you to succeed. As a new network that's coming on strong and has potential to become an even stronger partner, I'm going to push on you. I hope you see that as a good thing.
In fact, if I stop pushing, that probably means I've given up.
Scott
· 1 year ago
>> How many bookmarks for stat pages do you have in the dock of your Mac? Perhaps there’s a way to hook that up through Fluid? I’ll see if any network reps know < <
Again, I have none, nor do I need them.
I did just try out fluid, and as expected, it works great. It works because every report result on CJ and PJN are long urls with the parameters in the the query string. "Hackable URLs" is always smart design that lets users do creative, efficient things, and not forcing everybody through repetitive click streams.
Linkshare, on the other hand, uses form POSTs on their reports so many of their pages they cannot be bookmarked, or used in something like Fluid.
"And even if it is, and this is news to CJ, what’s wrong with offering Shawn, an individual with a problem, in a private converation, a nice quick solution? Nothing."
Nothing is wrong with that response to an individual. It's a good solution for Shawn per his post. However, I do think there's something to be said for making interfaces as easy to navigate and use as possible without asking the user to do one more thing.
It's really not that big of a deal and I don't want to get in the middle of a semantics or usability debate... my point here and on the podcasts is that it is good that we're finally getting these issues of usability out there so that new and old publishers can have the most efficient access to their stats and reporting.
"Shawn wrote about it and all of a sudden it’s CJ’s official answer to Pepperjam’s better interface?"
I didn't say that, either. I certainly don't think that's CJ's "answer" to Pepperjam's interface. They don't need an answer but all networks do need to constantly be considering how best to improve their internal navigation.
Scott
· 1 year ago
"good that we’re finally getting these issues of usability out there so that new and old publishers can have the most efficient access to their stats and reporting."
agreed.
"I didn’t say that, either. I certainly don’t think that’s CJ’s “answer†to Pepperjam’s interface.
Maybe not, but Kris used it as such, and you and a few others expressed agreement. Therefore by the "transitive property of 'said it'", you sorta did. :)
Look, I'm joking because there is really no reason for anyone to get defensive. I don't want to get into semantics either, and I really don't like that my post elicited a negative reaction from you guys. I tried hard to keep it even-keeled.
Shawn Collins
· 1 year ago
> Maybe I should get the details from Shawn, but it seems that his complaint was that there is some data that is hard to get to. That may or may not be something that I or 10,000 other affiliates want to see on the homepage.
The tip worked for me - pretty much everything I would like to see right away when logging in is in the Performance Reports area.
Good point that maybe most affiliates don't want that experience.
Kris Jones
· 1 year ago
Scott / Sam / Shawn,
Let's all agree. CJ is a great network, arguably the best out there!
In my opinion, the most interesting part of Shawn's testimonial of Pepperjam Network is not his comment that "the CJ interface is terribly clunky to find what he wants." That's true in most instances, and not in others, as Shawn expressed (and I agree) in his follow-up post.
Instead, what I found most interesting is the part of Shawn's testimonial that "Pepperjam Network is what an affiliate network would look like if it were built from a wish list from both the affiliate and merchant perspective."
That's what we tried to do. In the process, we realized that the two most requested features of a next generation network were, (1) better communication tools, and (2) more affiliate transparency.
Yes, I admit my bias, but on those two issues (communication / transparency) Pepperjam Network has successfully advanced a conversation that has been taking place for years.
Anyway - this conversation is very worthwhile and I'm hoping that when it's all said and done (it has really only begun) that the real winner are affiliates and advertisers.
However, I'm hoping affiliates and advertisers alike take Pepperjam Network for a spin and express their opinion one way or the other.
I haven't Pepperjam but I'll check it out - didn't know it existed.
CJ is easy to use and the reports are easily accessible. It doesn't take much to find what I need so I doubt I'll switch unless Pepperjam has better advertisers.
Shawn Collins
· 1 year ago
Evan -
CJ had a booth at Affiliate Summit, too.
I expressed a preference in an interface, end of story.
All Comments
I agree with you for the most part (especially about the API's and web services which CJ provides). However, I do think Kris has a point. Usability is a selling feature for his network. It's not the end-all-be-all for user interfaces and I think his repetitive use of "web2.0 interface" is a little inflated, but it's a start. And if it causes the other networks to think about interfaces and usability, then it's a good start.
But a desktop bookmark to a stats page? Come on... there's got to be a better solution (even on a tech call) than suggesting the end user have to do one more thing on their side of the court.
How many bookmarks for stat pages do you have in the dock of your Mac? Perhaps there's a way to hook that up through Fluid? I'll see if any network reps know :)
As I said on the podcast(s), I'm not taking sides here, but I do think Kris' point is fair criticism given that we've all been complaining about stats interfaces for years.
Sam
It's valuable to have a different opinion here, especially from a Commission Junction Publisher Advisory Board member.
When I used the words Web 2.0 in my post I was really referring to technologies like AJAX and PYTHON, programming languages that are used throughout Pepperjam Network to improve the user experience. Some of the benefits of AJAX include the ability to move from one page to another seemlessly and to pull important information quickly without having to load excessive data. CJ seems to still be using less ideal technologies (not AJAX) even though the depth of the reporting is very impressive.
I also agree with you that Web services (i.e. API access) is critical and Pepperjam Network is working to release a Web services platform that can be used by anyone, not just high-level tech / programming experts like yourself, which is what most of the other networks offer.
My post was really about the idea of next generation affiliate marketing.
By next generation I mean (1) better communication tools and (2) unfettered affiliate transparency.
The other networks have talked about these things but really haven't provided a solution.
Pepperjam Network has taken a step in the right direction by putting power back in the hands of affiliates and advertisers to control the relationship and make more money through better communication tools and unfettered affiliate and advertiser transparency.
The last thing I'll say that needs to be disclosed here is that you are a member of Commission Junction's Publisher Advisory Board. I'm surprised that you didn't mention your leadership role at CJ in your post because it seems to me to be worth disclosing or reminding your readers.
I'm not suggesting that your role on CJ's board influences your decision to comment here. Most of us that follow the industry closely know that you are quite outspoken and extremely well-respected. That's why network's like CJ ask you to be on their board and that's why Pepperjam Network will ask you to serve on our board once we create it.
Once again, thanks for your comments.
My hope is that if this discussion continues we all talk about next generation tools that are accessible to everyone, not just the select few affiliates / advertisers chosen by the network or to those with the programming and development skills to build their own.
As I said, I love that it is happening, and as I said in the quote that I gave them, I think they're in a great position to do it.
But I have to call you guys on this bookmark thing, and that you're pushing back on it, I don't think you see my point.
Personally, I don't have or need any bookmarks to get into CJ. I can save my reports, and that serves me just fine.
Maybe I should get the details from Shawn, but it seems that his complaint was that there is some data that is hard to get to. That may or may not be something that I or 10,000 other affiliates want to see on the homepage.
The fact of the matter is that he can save any report and name it, then it's just a few clicks away (I wish CJ had THAT on the homepage).
That's what I do. He seemed to like the bookmark idea, and it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, especially if that data isn't necessarily what *everybody* wants to see on the homepage.
And even if it is, and this is news to CJ, what's wrong with offering Shawn, an individual with a problem, in a private converation, a nice quick solution? Nothing.
Shawn wrote about it and all of a sudden it's CJ's official answer to Pepperjam's better interface?
You mention the CJPAB status as if it makes me bias. I would challenge you to find a harsher critic than me on things that CJ has done, or not done in the past several years. Some of those things, I'm afraid probably jeopardized my position as a CJP and advisory board member.
Also, that status or my status as a CJ Performer does not afford me any special access to features. Granted, my technical knowledge does allow me to take advantage of APIs.
I'm sorry I didn't mention those things.
This post wasn't written to piss you off or to pick a fight. I hope you don't see it that way.
I also want us all to focus on features and improvements that at the very least are available to everyone (APIs are) if not benefit everyone.
I consider Pepperjam a good partner as much as I do CJ and as I've said, I want you to succeed. As a new network that's coming on strong and has potential to become an even stronger partner, I'm going to push on you. I hope you see that as a good thing.
In fact, if I stop pushing, that probably means I've given up.
Again, I have none, nor do I need them.
I did just try out fluid, and as expected, it works great. It works because every report result on CJ and PJN are long urls with the parameters in the the query string. "Hackable URLs" is always smart design that lets users do creative, efficient things, and not forcing everybody through repetitive click streams.
Linkshare, on the other hand, uses form POSTs on their reports so many of their pages they cannot be bookmarked, or used in something like Fluid.
For those that don't know what Sam's talking about, I wrote about Fluid a few days ago.
Nothing is wrong with that response to an individual. It's a good solution for Shawn per his post. However, I do think there's something to be said for making interfaces as easy to navigate and use as possible without asking the user to do one more thing.
It's really not that big of a deal and I don't want to get in the middle of a semantics or usability debate... my point here and on the podcasts is that it is good that we're finally getting these issues of usability out there so that new and old publishers can have the most efficient access to their stats and reporting.
"Shawn wrote about it and all of a sudden it’s CJ’s official answer to Pepperjam’s better interface?"
I didn't say that, either. I certainly don't think that's CJ's "answer" to Pepperjam's interface. They don't need an answer but all networks do need to constantly be considering how best to improve their internal navigation.
agreed.
"I didn’t say that, either. I certainly don’t think that’s CJ’s “answer†to Pepperjam’s interface.
Maybe not, but Kris used it as such, and you and a few others expressed agreement. Therefore by the "transitive property of 'said it'", you sorta did. :)
Look, I'm joking because there is really no reason for anyone to get defensive. I don't want to get into semantics either, and I really don't like that my post elicited a negative reaction from you guys. I tried hard to keep it even-keeled.
The tip worked for me - pretty much everything I would like to see right away when logging in is in the Performance Reports area.
Good point that maybe most affiliates don't want that experience.
Let's all agree. CJ is a great network, arguably the best out there!
In my opinion, the most interesting part of Shawn's testimonial of Pepperjam Network is not his comment that "the CJ interface is terribly clunky to find what he wants." That's true in most instances, and not in others, as Shawn expressed (and I agree) in his follow-up post.
Instead, what I found most interesting is the part of Shawn's testimonial that "Pepperjam Network is what an affiliate network would look like if it were built from a wish list from both the affiliate and merchant perspective."
That's what we tried to do. In the process, we realized that the two most requested features of a next generation network were, (1) better communication tools, and (2) more affiliate transparency.
Yes, I admit my bias, but on those two issues (communication / transparency) Pepperjam Network has successfully advanced a conversation that has been taking place for years.
Anyway - this conversation is very worthwhile and I'm hoping that when it's all said and done (it has really only begun) that the real winner are affiliates and advertisers.
However, I'm hoping affiliates and advertisers alike take Pepperjam Network for a spin and express their opinion one way or the other.
Affiliates have spoken. Pepperjam Listened.
Kris Jones
Pepperjam Network
www.pepperjamnetwork.com
CJ is easy to use and the reports are easily accessible. It doesn't take much to find what I need so I doubt I'll switch unless Pepperjam has better advertisers.
CJ had a booth at Affiliate Summit, too.
I expressed a preference in an interface, end of story.